(Tangent alert) Why does modern Firefox suck so much?

[wuggy]

Recently had to use and compile modern Firefox, and it is an experience straight from hell.
(Whoever thought it was a good idea to shove rust into Firefox seriously needs a mental checkup.)

For one, why does it take 3 hours to compile, whereas UXP takes 20 mins? (Spoiler, most of that is just compiling Rust packages)

And it's also compiling stupid shit like WebVR, in the WINDOWS VERSION. Maybe it would make an ounce of sense if it was on Android or something similar to that, but still, WHY?

So-called "modern" web browsers are the most stupid shit I have ever seen. All a web browser needs to do is load pages, maybe a sprinkle of JavaScript, not whatever the modern web's crap is.

[Iffy-chan]

I mean, I've already linked to a gigantic webpage that talks about this previously: https://digdeeper.club/articles/mozilla.xhtml

TL;DR they're more focused on controlled-opposition performative activism than building a browser. It's intentional.

As for web developers being morons, it's both a mix of agenda-ism, "smart" devices and laziness.

I wish something independent like NetSurf would get more attention, to be quite honest. I've always liked the idea of a totally independently written browser (not to mention, it's been ported to some interesting platforms, such as RISC OS and the Dreamcast).

[The-10-Pen]

I kinda think that Firefox Sucks So Much because their userbase just "accepts" unconventional aspects of Firefox without REAL thought behind it.

With RESPECT towards members here, we have that "blind acceptance" even HERE.

I realize that I'm in the minority, doesn't mean I can't be heard.
I cite Firefox's background DNS (merely as a RECENT discussion herein).
These "background" connections, regardless of how "trivial" or data-centric, FORCE software firewall rules to be OPENED WIDER.
Things like "loopback" rules. I will not go into detail, research yourself! This has been a Firefox "negative" for over TWENTY YEARS.
If you use very strict parent-process-based firewall rules, Firefox has to be opened WIDER than browsers without these "trivial" DNS connections.
Call me paranoid, DON'T CARE!

To me, Firefox users are COMPLACENT and MAKE UP EXCUSES when "called out".
Forgive me for saying so, but they see themselves as "different" and "going against the grain" and MAKE EXCUSES to label it as "right".

There are some NON-COMPLACENT users - ie, things like this --
https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/browsing/firefox-users-slam-mozilla-over-controversial-data-privacy-update

But the reality is that MOST users of Firefox really DON'T CARE, they have BLIND TRUST in Firefox and create excuses when called out on it.
"But it's the lesser of two evils", or something like that.

I can't speak towards COMPILING Firefox, I have done it, but I also didn't trust my output.
But then again, I didn't really trust the input "base code" either.

[The-10-Pen]

I suppose I should add the DISCLAIMER that when I say "most Firefox users", I refer to folks like my SISTER and NOT folks that become members of web sites such as this. Something my sister would NEVER do. Facebook, yes. Something real like this, no, never in a million years. And that subset of "most Firefox users" couldn't tell you the difference between DNS, TCP, or UDP. But could list three dozen acronyms used on Facebook that I would have to look up to know what the H#ll she is trying to say.

[DoNotThrowOldPCsAway]

Anyone else noticed how fast version 148 was only for the whole speed improvement to go away in 149?

[The-10-Pen]

Anyone else noticed how fast version 148 was only for the whole speed improvement to go away in 149?

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[The-10-Pen]

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[wuggy]

Can you test Dactyloidae against this? I want to see what you get.

[The-10-Pen]

Can you test Dactyloidae against this? I want to see what you get.

Absolutely... One moment...

[The-10-Pen]

All of these (and previous) were done in a 4GB RAM TeamOS Win11 Ultra Lite VM where I strip away additional items that TeamOS still leaves in.
With no background or on-the-side "load" while performing test. No other apps open other than browser being tested at the time.
No extensions, out of the box, as-is, no config changes of any kind.

Comparing Dact-ae to "modern" seems UNFAIR, so I include a more apples-to-apples comparison with UXP Serpent 52 and Official Pale Moon.
I've never ran UXP Serpent 55 to know where it would fall in comparison.

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[The-10-Pen]

Just for reference. Also in the same Win11 VM as all above screencaps. This is what I use on any of my XP machines/VMs.

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[Iffy-chan]

"But it's the lesser of two evils", or something like that.

It's an extremely 'old school' attitude to be viciously anti-Chromium and pro-Firefox in technical-minded communities, which is probably a holdover from the IE6-era rivalry days... but also part of a performative/symbolic 'fuck you' to Big Tech, without realising Mozilla are very much a part of that Big Tech themselves.

'Firefox good because backed by nonprofit', and 'Chromium bad because backed by for-profit' is a very simple way of looking at things, and isn't usually correct either.

Not to mention, the way Mozilla treated the SeaMonkey team also cemented my opinion of them as a bunch of establishment crooks worse than Google could ever be. If they weren't so disingenuous about 'ooh we're the good guys!!!! please like us!!!' and just admitted they're a bunch of fucking cunts I'd probably like them just that little bit more, but as it stands, their browser is not only shite but they are also a bunch of two-faced wankers along with it.

[The-10-Pen]

↑

Agreed !!!

[Duke]

It's an extremely 'old school' attitude to be viciously anti-Chromium

OK, be 'modern' and go with Chrome then. It's well known to be much better about privacy than Firefox and the Google guys are soooo cool with all of us

Food for thought: read about Manifest V3:
https://ublockorigin.com

[The-10-Pen]

↑

AGREED also !!!

No browser is "perfect" !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!!
What "gets my goat" is when Firefox people (you?) shout "Fire" from rooftops FALSELY CLAIMING that Firefox is "the best thing since sliced bread".

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[The-10-Pen]

Food for thought: read about Manifest V3:
https://ublockorigin.com

In case you missed it (because I "talk a lot", lol), MV3 is *one of the reasons* that I *hate* uBO force-included in recent 'fox forks.
Although, yeah, I probably (probably) shouldn't complain about that UNTIL (it will happen eventually, IMO) Firefox/Forks no longer support MV2.

I *intentionally* use a MV2 version of uBO.
My point here being "don't assume I'm on MV3 uBO" even on browsers that air-quotes "no longer support" MV2.
Even Chrome/Chromium Dev v146 *STILL* runs MV2 extensions. Requires a couple of hoops to jump through, but nothing major.
And hoops that geekie nerdie types that join forums like this are WELL AWARE OF.

[The-10-Pen]

OK, be 'modern' and go with Chrome then. It's well known to be much better about privacy than Firefox and the Google guys are soooo cool with all of us

No browser is perfect. NONE.
Yeah, every Firefox Fan always always always cites "privacy". Yawn!
Or every Firefox Fan is so GIGANTICALLY biased against anything-everything "corporate". Another Yawn!
Always confuses me as a "low to middle Working Class" with a 401k.
Serious Question - Do Firefox users have 401k's? Seriously, do they ???
My sister does NOT !!! And that's my closest reference for "Firefox user".
But my brother-in-law DOES. But he's a truck driver and doesn't even use computers, only phones and phone apps.

But anywhoo...
No browser is perfect. Some of us MUST HAVE the PERFORMANCE of ditching-the-sh*t out of Firefox.
I used to be (USED TO BE!) a Firefox Fanboy. Dead serious! Then Pale Moon when Firefox went DOWNHILL.
Then Pale Moon went DOWNHILL also!

No browser is perfect. I really do *REQUIRE* PERFORMANCE in my browser.
I always have AT LEAST *FIVE* videos playing at any given time.
Hey, to each their own, it's my way of life and I love it.
I don't scroll around on the remote during commercials, I only need to mute that video and unmute another.

It's great and I love it. To each their own. CAN'T DO THIS in crappy browsers. Just can't!

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[Iffy-chan]

I'm well aware of Manifest V3, Duke. Mozillarse clearly allowed it to go through as they have a say in the WebExtensions protocol, they are just as complicit in the watering down of content blocking as Google are. Besides, can't one just patch support back in if they really must? (See: The Browser Which Must Not Be Named)

Also, Chromium !== Chrome. That's like saying roytam1's forks are the same as the official Pale Moon project, or that Pale Moon is Firefox itself.

Can I just ask The-Ten-Pen/NotHereToPlayGames though, why you have five videos playing at one time? How are you capable of keeping up with them all? (Not to mention, CNN and Fox News... what on earth?)

Do agree with preloaded extensions being a bad thing, as personally I think it should be up to the user, if they want to install a specific content blocker or not. Some people like uMatrix over uBlock Origin for instance or just simply dislike additional third-party content they didn't ask for.

(Also, we don't all live in the USA: the state pension pot isn't called a 401k outside the US. For the record, you might actually be onto something here in regards to the differing priorities between those who are pretty much grafting day to day and those who live a relatively comfortable life - it's easier to worry about trivial things when you're well-off)

[The-10-Pen]

My default go-to is Ungoogled Chromium... Then Official Chromium... Then Official Chrome... Then Official Edge...

Unfortunately, I need all of them.
I prefer to use OLDER versions. But not "too old".
My Ungoogled is still at v138. My Chromium and Chrome are both at v144. My Edge is at v146.

My city utilities (cursed they be!) never makes it past a Clouflare test on ANYTHING older than two months old!
So I keep a PORTABLE un-embedded-with-OS version of Edge basically just for paying my city utilities.

Netflix only works on Official Chrome (I'm sure it works on Edge also, I just don't because Edge consumes more RAM).

And H#LL YEAH, CNN *and* Fox! When I tell you I am "purple" and a "centrist", I really am.
I HATE THE "EXTREMISTS" ON BOTH SIDES !!!

[Duke]

Mozillarse

Enough said.

There are actually two major browsers: Chromium and Firefox. Any other browser is a fork of these two ones.
So using names and shouting is useless. Make your choice but don't waste your time trying to convince other people.
My choice is a recent browser + Manifest V2 as long as possible. Because I want to be able to choose what my browser has access to. That's what is really important for me and not the so-called attitude of the browser team. Because in this case I'd never use anything made by Google.

[UCyborg]

They all suck. I haven't found a browser with all of the following:

• Has UI I like.
• Renders fonts in a way that don't make my eyes bleed.
• Doesn't randomly crash, lag spike or memory leak.
• Doesn't have random issues with certain extensions.
• Performs well while not being a resource hog.

[The-10-Pen]

They all suck. I haven't found a browser with all of the following:

• Has UI I like.
• Renders fonts in a way that don't make my eyes bleed.
• Doesn't randomly crash, lag spike or memory leak.
• Doesn't have random issues with certain extensions.
• Performs well while not being a resource hog.

Agreed, same here.
The UI of Mypal bugs the crap out of me. Not even sure "why", to be honest.
It's some form of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and I just find it and those like it UGLY.

Funny thing about UI, I was watching a so-called "futuristic" movie the other day, forgot what it was already, but they had a scene where they were using NETSCAPE NAVIGATOR FOUR from the late 90's. I know I was on Netflix at the time and nothing in my watch history is older than from 2024. So some movie company in 2024 thought the imagery of Netscape Navigator 4 made the scene look "futuristic" instead of "nostalgic".

[enmanuel]

Funny thing about UI, I was watching a so-called "futuristic" movie the other day, forgot what it was already, but they had a scene where they were using NETSCAPE NAVIGATOR FOUR from the late 90's. I know I was on Netflix at the time and nothing in my watch history is older than from 2024. So some movie company in 2024 thought the imagery of Netscape Navigator 4 made the scene look "futuristic" instead of "nostalgic".

I mean, it was futuristic when it came out.

[UCyborg]

Now my thread on PM forum was locked, how cute. At this point, I've had it, this project doesn't get another cent out of me. Or any other, for that matter.

My goodwill, it's pointless. Being a good person is pointless, so I will not answer such calls, not anymore.

With that said, I remember the time when using a web browser wasn't a daily grief. That time is a distant memory at this point. Then something changed, a sort of glitch in the Matrix.

Was it the death of Presto? Trident? I know Firefox kept getting worse. Modern Firefox is so bad that when I used it recently on another laptop with 4 GB of RAM, the tab would crash on me literally every 5 min. That was with mere 3 tabs at most.

Pale Moon inherited everything from when Firefox started going downhill...lag spikes, memory leaks...and adds its own issues on top. The former have been an issue since forever. My most recent grief, I cannot login to my water company's website without browser hanging if PassIFox and uBO are enabled. KeePass integration is a must for me and it's always been elusive in a way. The base responsiveness is lackluster as-it-is and it just gets worse with use. You cannot get things in REAL LIFE done without it slowing down even further. Do I even need to mention its community thinks they're so much better than everyone else?

I wanted to give Chromium a honest try in recent times, I mean for real, not just as a last resort I open for 5 min if I really must then close. But no, impossible. I thought the script for bumping font contrast actually helps with readability, but as it turned out, it merely extended the time before my eyes hurt from 5 min to 10 min. So useless.

Forks are more or less irrelevant to me as they copy-paste all the bad stuff.

So what do I do? As it is, I just suffer with Pale Moon as I wait for the better browser that will never come.

[The-10-Pen]

TOTALLY AGREED !!!

As you know, I was still on XP a year and a half to two years ago.
Time alludes me at times, but right around there or so.
But I was on x64 so I did not have the RAM limitations that most XP users have.
Nowadays, you can NOT, simply can NOT, no way, no how, you can NOT browse the internet with 4 GB RAM.
GIVE UP THAT ENDEAVOR IMMEDIATELY.

I (finally) migrated to Win10. But 2016 and 2022 versions, NOTHING NEWER!
I use Chromium pretty much exclusively nowadays. I have too many streaming apps that don't work on Ungoogled Chromium.
At least they "didn't", I should try again, I have seen more and more reddit threads on how to get Ungoogled to stream, so I should revisit.

These are the "font fixes" I use in Chromium/Chrome/Edge:

Code: Select all

// ==UserScript==
// @name - Fonts - Apply Text Shadow
// @match *://*/*
// @version 2.17.1
// @grant none
// ==/UserScript==

'use strict';

var isRunning;

function applyFilter() {
    var AllElem=document.querySelectorAll(':not(script):not(style):not(area):not(base):not(br):not(col):not(embed):not(hr):not(img):not(input):not(keygen):not(link):not(meta):not(param):not(source):not(track):not(wbr):not(table):not(tbody):not(tr):not(ul)')
    for (var i=0;i<AllElem.length;i++) {
        for (var j=0;j<AllElem[i].childNodes.length;j++) { // cycle through element nodes
            if (AllElem[i].childNodes[j].nodeType===3 && AllElem[i].childNodes[j].textContent.trim().length>0) {// is it a text node?
                if (window.getComputedStyle(AllElem[i]).getPropertyValue('text-shadow')=='none'){ // do not run if text-shadow is already present
                    var Col=window.getComputedStyle(AllElem[i]).getPropertyValue('color').replace(/[^\d,.]/g,'').split(',') // text color array (R/G/B/A)

                    if (typeof(Col[3])=='undefined'||Col[3].split('.')[0]=='1') { // run if element does not have an alpha channel  already applied
                        var Lum=Math.round(0.2126*Col[0]+0.7152*Col[1]+0.0722*Col[2]) // luminosity
                        var Opa=parseFloat(255*(255-Lum)/65025).toFixed(1) // opacity between 0 and 1
                        if (Lum<128) Opa=1
                        AllElem[i].style.setProperty('text-shadow','0 0 0px rgba('+Col[0]+','+Col[1]+','+Col[2]+','+Opa+')','important') // set text shadow with alpha
                    }
                }
            }
        }
    }
}

function waitAndApplyFilter() {
    if (typeof(isRunning)!='undefined') clearTimeout(isRunning)
    isRunning=setTimeout(function(){applyFilter()},100)
}

const callback = (mutationList, observer) => { // called every time BODY has changed
    for (const mutation of mutationList) {
        if (mutation.type === "childList") waitAndApplyFilter()
    }
};

applyFilter();

const targetNode = document.getElementsByTagName("body")[0]
// Options for the observer (which mutations to observe)
const config = { attributes: false, childList: true, subtree: true };
// Create an observer instance linked to the callback function
const observer = new MutationObserver(callback);
// Start observing the target node for configured mutations
observer.observe(targetNode, config);

Code: Select all

// ==UserScript==
// @name - Fonts - Set Minimum Weight
// @version 1.0
// @match http://*/*
// @match https://*/*
// @grant none
// @run-at document-idle
// ==/UserScript==

(function() {
    'use strict';

    var minweight = 400;

    var all = document.getElementsByTagName("*");
    for (var i=0, max=all.length; i < max; i++) {
        var weight = parseFloat(window.getComputedStyle(all.item(i), null).getPropertyValue('font-weight'));
        if (weight < minweight) {
            all.item(i).style.fontWeight = minweight;
        }
    }

})();

[The-10-Pen]

I cannot login to my water company's website

I can't help but LAUGH and ROLL ON THE FLOOR at this one. Not because it is "funny", per se.
But because it's always my WATER COMPANY that is ALWAYS my first monthly web site that FORCES a browser update!

It's not always the same web site, but is ALWAYS one of the two.
I have two water bill payments.
I have a water company that supplies me with water and it has its own billpay.
I have a city sewer and storm water (and trash pickup) and it has its own billpay.

It is ALWAYS one of those two web sites that FORCES a browser update !!!

[the_r3dacted]

Anyone else noticed how fast version 148 was only for the whole speed improvement to go away in 149?

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2026-04-16_14-52-51.jpg

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I wonder if you could test alpha 149 builds to figure out where this dip occur ed. Could fix the issue in r3dfox.
https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/nightly/2026/01/
https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/nightly/2026/02/

In case you missed it (because I "talk a lot", lol), MV3 is *one of the reasons* that I *hate* uBO force-included in recent 'fox forks.
Although, yeah, I probably (probably) shouldn't complain about that UNTIL (it will happen eventually, IMO) Firefox/Forks no longer support MV2.

I *intentionally* use a MV2 version of uBO.

The version included in r3dfox and in the Firefox addon store is MV2 though. There is a uBO Lite that is MV3, and from what I've heard it works pretty well and can even be better than MV2 uBO, but I haven't tried it.

Some people like uMatrix over uBlock Origin for instance

Those are two different types of addons. uMatrix is not the same sort of content blocker as uBlock Origin. They're kinda made to be used together, which I do.

And H#LL YEAH, CNN *and* Fox! When I tell you I am "purple" and a "centrist", I really am.
I HATE THE "EXTREMISTS" ON BOTH SIDES !!!

Corporate controlled opposition *and* literally argued in court that they were not news and just entertainment, and argued that no sane person would take them seriously. You could do a lot better.

• Renders fonts in a way that don't make my eyes bleed.
• Doesn't randomly crash, lag spike or memory leak.
• Doesn't have random issues with certain extensions.
• Performs well while not being a resource hog.

Yeah all that comes from needing to parse the modern internet. I don't think we will ever get that.

However for fonts I would like to bring back Cairo and GDI to r3dfox. However WebRender is a shit, and I did try seeing how well the Basic compositor in 91 fares with Cairo, but it doesn't fare very well. I'd need to fix GDI in WebRender somehow.

The UI of Mypal bugs the crap out of me. Not even sure "why", to be honest.
It's some form of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and I just find it and those like it UGLY.

Out of the last three major Firefox redesigns, I prefer the Firefox 68 style the most imo. Although it's a low bar and only beats Austrailous or whatever because the tab shape isn't horrible. 89+ I hate the floating tabs and the line icons are worse, but not worse enough for me to replace them in r3dfox. Except for where it makes the downloads list horrible to check for failed downloads.

If I were to make a Mypal68 fork I'd bring a similar tab design to r3dfox, but it would be near the same for the most part, idk if I would change very much with it.

Was it the death of Presto? Trident? I know Firefox kept getting worse. Modern Firefox is so bad that when I used it recently on another laptop with 4 GB of RAM, the tab would crash on me literally every 5 min. That was with mere 3 tabs at most.

That seems like a weird RAM leak. I didn't encounter this when I tested Librewolf on my T52 with 1GB. It was just very slow, even when I accidentally ran it without a page file. Although that was on x86 Debian Linux.

Pale Moon inherited everything from when Firefox started going downhill...lag spikes, memory leaks...and adds its own issues on top.

Combination of modern internet being awful and them forking at literally the worst point. Firefox 52 was basically the end point where Firefox consistently got slower and slower every release. I feel the browser would've been better off had they just kept extending the 38 ESR codebase. Although you could still do better.

Forks are more or less irrelevant to me as they copy-paste all the bad stuff.

So what do I do? As it is, I just suffer with Pale Moon as I wait for the better browser that will never come.

Next version of Lun3r will come with Dactyloidae's performance improvements, and if things go well, both browsers should merge, so updates should be at least a little more consistent.

Going from the point before, someone should retest the Firefox ESR performance from the beginning to current day. It would be interesting to see how it changed over time. Then test alpha builds to see where the speed decreases or increases came from, maybe those could be fixed in the fork.

[The-10-Pen]

And H#LL YEAH, CNN *and* Fox! When I tell you I am "purple" and a "centrist", I really am.
I HATE THE "EXTREMISTS" ON BOTH SIDES !!!

Corporate controlled opposition *and* literally argued in court that they were not news and just entertainment, and argued that no sane person would take them seriously. You could do a lot better.

AGREED !!!
There is NO SUCH THING as "televised NEWS" here in the USA.
All we have is "commentators", NOT "journalists".
That goes for Fox, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, *ALL OF THEM*, nothing but COMMENTATORS.
"Journalism" is DEAD.
All we can really do here in the USA is listen to COMMENTS from both sides and THINK FOR YOURSELF (a lost art here in the USA!).

[The-10-Pen]

I wonder if you could test alpha 149 builds to figure out where this dip occur ed. Could fix the issue in r3dfox.
https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/nightly/2026/01/
https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/nightly/2026/02/

Um, are you asking me to download a HUNDRED different nightly builds and test each and every HUNDRED ???
Well, in a nutshell - NO!

Narrow that list of HUNDRED (no, I didn't count, but those FTPs are GIGANTIC) down to ten or so and SURE, yeah, I can do that.

[The-10-Pen]

Here's what APPEARS TO BE "first" 149 and "last" 149.
But I was just clicking around quickly without spending too much time to track down.

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